Episode 67 - Oumou Sylla: How Boundaries Affect Our Wellbeing, and The Benefits of Pleasure and Play for our Bodyminds
Oumou (she/they) is a Black, queer multi-hyphenate therapist, speaker, writer, facilitator, coach, and more. Today's conversation explores all things boundaries, where Oumou shares two definitions for boundaries, as well as some examples of ways to express boundaries, and the difference between boundaries, requests, and bids for care. This episode also covers how including pleasure and play in our lives can help us connect with our bodyminds, no matter what age you are.
[ID: A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 67: Oumou Sylla @connectwithoumou and Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier @intersectionalfertility.]
[00:00:00] Josie: I'm Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our Whole Selves.
[00:00:32] Hello friend! I took a little break as you probably noticed for the last few episodes while I was running my fall cohort of Fertile. And we just wrapped up and now I've got a bunch of incredible guests lined up for you for the rest of this year. I'm so excited for you to hear them all. Particularly today's episode is a real treat.
[00:00:56] This has been one of my favorite interviews. I mean, I have so many favorites, but this is up there, with Oumou. And I believe I pronounced her name wrong when I read her bio. I think I said Oh-mou, and I believe it's Oumou, so I apologize for that. And after you listen to today's conversation, I would love for you to come join our Qmunity so that we can continue thoughts or questions or ideas or anything that kind of comes up as you listen to today's episode.
[00:01:27] I would love to further discuss with you over in our Qmunity. So I made it a lot easier to join. I'm not sure why I didn't do this before, but now all you have to do is go to intersectionalfertility.com and click on Qmunity and that's spelled with a Q for queer plus community. And there will be a dropdown menu and you can choose to join the free community or the paid community.
[00:01:50] You can join either one. The free Qmunity is free and you'll see the video version of all our episodes on there, and you can connect with other folks, fellow podcast listeners. And then in the paid version. We have all sorts of extra goodies and it's $26 a month, you can cancel anytime.
[00:02:09] There is extra podcast bonus content in the paid Qmunity. There is also monthly webinars that are fertility related, and there are already some recorded webinars in there as well that you have access to when you join. So right now there's a training on inclusive practices for healthcare practitioners and support people. There's also a webinar on what boundaries have to do with fertility and how to improve yours.
[00:02:37] And then how to use acupressure to increase your fertility. So those are all past webinars that I've taught and the recordings are all in there. They're each about an hour and there are accompanying slides for each of them you can print out so tons of useful knowledge and resources in the paid community for you.
[00:02:55] I also offer a monthly coffee hour. You can come just hang out in real time and we can chat about whatever. I'm kicking around some ideas in the Qmunity right now. I'm thinking about creating like a creative writing club where we can write about our fertility journeys. Or gender stuff or family building, queer parenting, anything.
[00:03:18] And we can share, we can write and share our pieces and get feedback if we want or not, if we don't want. And you definitely don't have to be a writer to participate. I think that journaling and writing has been one of my most favorite and beneficial forms of like therapy, to be honest, for me, it's been such a vital part of my own healing.
[00:03:43] You know, since I was eight, really, I've been journaling since I was eight. And yeah, I just, I love to write, and this is one of my big passions, so I would love to get something together there in the paid community for folks who are interested. That's just one idea. I also have been doing a body movement accountability check in every day.
[00:04:01] I think today we're on day, well, when this podcast comes out, I'll be a little bit further along. Right now, I'm on day, I think 12. So that's been going well. It's been awesome to hear how other folks are feeling motivated and kind of popping in and out of the accountability. Just to kind of say where they're at and what they're doing to move their body.
[00:04:20] I don't use the word exercise. I like to use the word body movement. Yeah, so that's been really cool as well. So lots of fun stuff going on over there and I just love to keep that energy going and get to know you all and just create this beautiful queer community. So head on over to intersectionalfertility.com and you can click on Qmunity and you can join the free or the paid version.
[00:04:44] And I will see you over there and I hope you enjoy today's episode. It's so, so good. I would love to hear your feedback, so hopefully I will be able to engage with you about it over in the Qmunity. All right, enjoy.
[00:04:57] Oumou is a multi-hyphenate polycreative therapist, coach, entrepreneur, disruptor, writer, speaker, consultant, and facilitator of spaces for radical learning. Oumou is a two time graduate of Syracuse University, and former adjunct professor of the same school. She is also the creator of Radical Mental Health First Aid, which is the most incredible course ever.
[00:05:32] A workshop that is slowly but surely changing the care and mental health landscape. I agree. In her work, she incorporates different modes of learning, facilitation, processing, and healing based on your needs, context, and background. They are mindful and aware that we are impacted by anti-Blackness, ableism, gender based oppression, capitalism, state sanctioned violence, and other forms of systemic injustice in every aspect of our lives, including our businesses, and thinks of pleasure, play, rest, and care as vessels for resistance.
[00:06:08] Oh, my God, what an amazing bio.
[00:06:10] Oumou: Thank you.
[00:06:14] Josie: I'm just like the whole, every single word is just like, yes, that makes so much sense and resonates so deeply with me.
[00:06:21] Oumou: Thanks for having me.
[00:06:23] Josie: Yeah, welcome to the podcast. So I would love to just know your pronouns and where you're joining us from.
[00:06:30] Oumou: My pronouns are my name, she and they. And I am joining you from so called Los Angeles.
[00:06:38] Josie: And I always love to know folks stories. What is the story that led you to become a wellness doula and trauma informed therapist? Or would you call yourself either of those things? I'm not sure.
[00:06:48] Oumou: Yeah, so I have a hard time, like, labeling myself as a therapist, I've made it a really, like, big thing to, for example, when I made my therapist Instagram, I made it a point to not call it, like, Therapy with Oumou. Because I wanted to not have this, like, like, identity just be so intertwined with who I am.
[00:07:09] And so, you know, therapizing is a thing that I do in my day job, absolutely. I do that. It's really, it's really fun. It's really impactful. And the way that I came to it, I think it came to me. In a really interesting kind of way, I'm a person that kind of responds to what is presented to me in life.
[00:07:29] And so I would say the same thing happened with therapy. I was in a sophomore class with a professor that had some connections with the grad school at my school. And he kind of just brought up to me, do you know that there's a therapy program here? And I said, Oh, really? And then I looked it up and then I applied.
[00:07:48] That's just literally how it happened. My undergrad was in child and family studies and so I always like knew I was going to do some like people, human being related type thing, but I never actually like sat down and dreamt upon a star to be a therapist per se. I just really wanted to like do things and like, you know, have fun and be with people.
[00:08:11] And I think I get to do all those types of things now with all the different jobs and roles and hats that I wear.
[00:08:17] Josie: Yeah, nice. And is doula a part of that at all or no?
[00:08:21] Oumou: Yeah, so wellness, the wellness doula is, is a name that I created for myself because I was like, I don't want to call myself a coach, or consultant. And so I came up with that name, but I am having some like identity issues with that name now too. So I'm like, I don't know if I'm a wellness doula anymore. But I'm Oumou, and I'm spectacular.
[00:08:43] Josie: Perfect. I love it. So one of the reasons I wanted to invite you here today is because in Chinese medicine and other ancient healing modalities, one of the major factors that can influence the fertile environment in our body, our boundaries, which is so endlessly fascinating to me.
[00:09:02] You know, I talk about this a lot in my online program fertile, and we, when we talk about the earth element and the earth element has a lot to do with boundaries and knowing where we end and where others begin and how that impacts our fertility because when we're trying to conceive, we're actually bringing in other you know, other folks, DNA into our body.
[00:09:23] And so we don't want to have a reaction where we're hostile to that DNA. We want it to be a welcoming environment. And so in order for that to happen, we actually have to have really clear boundaries on a cellular level of knowing I don't have to attack this foreign particle. It will be safe here because I know where I end and this foreign particle begins.
[00:09:47] Oumou: Wait, wait, wait, wait. This is so cool. Okay. I'm learning in real time with y'all.
[00:09:54] Josie: Yeah. So it's like, it's sort of that function of how autoimmune disorders can work where it's like, if there are not clear boundaries, you can overreact on, you know, on just like everything's an enemy because there's no discernment between what is self and what is other, you know?
[00:10:13] Oumou: For sure. Oh my gosh. I never, cause I'm not like into, I don't know like lots about fertility or anything, you know, it's just like not my wheelhouse, but some of the things that you're saying are super connected to like some of the things that I might talk with clients about as it relates to chronic illness and chronic pain and chronic disease, you know. So I think that's really interesting to like hear it through this lens and in this form.
[00:10:45] It's really blowing my mind for sure.
[00:10:46] Josie: Oh, cool. Yeah. I would love to know your thoughts too about how that relates to the work that you do.
[00:10:52] Oumou: Yeah, so in in the work that I do like boundaries comes up all the time because we have bodies and so our bodies are containers for things. Experiences, sensations, and more, and our bodies, our soma comes into contact with other somas all the time, right?
[00:11:14] Be it other like human physical bodies, ecological bodies, you know, there's so many different systems, ecosystems that exist in the world that we're in. So in, in my work, part of like people's experiences is this not having a relationship to the different parts of themselves and their sense of self, which makes it then difficult to have the words, verbal and non verbal, to describe to others what your boundaries are.
[00:11:46] And makes it susceptible to like lots of different types of nervous system responses based off of what people are doing and not doing and based off of what you're perceiving to be a threat and not a threat.
[00:12:00] Josie: Interesting. Yeah, that makes sense. So it's like you have to have a pretty strong sense of self in order to communicate your boundaries.
[00:12:08] Oumou: For sure, for sure, or a minimally like a willingness to explore sense sense of self and see, see what parts of us are existing because not all of us are going to get to a point where it's like, I know everything.
[00:12:20] So, like. I'm going to be able to describe all my boundaries to everyone at all times, but the willingness to like be on the terrain on the road of exploration is the thing that will support a lifelong journey of, of this stuff.
[00:12:36] Josie: Oh, interesting. I love that. I love that it's not static, that it's like our boundaries and our, and our sense of self are both constantly evolving and changing.
[00:12:45] Oumou: Constantly evolving and changing. Yeah. And I think like maybe I think and view things in that way because of like my queer identity. I don't think anyone is static. I don't think that experiences are static. Even our like understanding of the same boundary will change over time.
[00:13:02] Josie: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I've experienced that. Yeah, for sure. So what do you think a boundary is? Like, what, what would be kind of your definition of a boundary and why they, I mean, we kind of talked about why they are important to our wellbeing, but anything more to say around that?
[00:13:18] Oumou: So I'm actually going to use two different people's definitions of boundaries that are not mine. I think that these two boundary definitions are brilliant, and I don't have to add anything to it. So the first, the first definition of boundary that has been like, instrumental in shifting how I relate to this work is that boundaries are sweet, juicy promises to oneself.
[00:13:44] Josie: Mmm, wow. I love that.
[00:13:47] Oumou: So who said that, you ask? A phenomenal wellness strategist. Her name is M I S H A R A Winston. Mishara, I think it's maybe Mishara D. Winston on Instagram. But incredible. Sweet, juicy promises to myself. That means that no one's a part of it. No one is a part of it. I'm just talking about me, and what I need, and what's going on.
[00:14:16] Josie: Ugh. That's amazing. Yeah.
[00:14:20] Oumou: So that offers lots of clarity about, like, the things I'm choosing to say and the things that I'm calling boundaries, right?
[00:14:27] Josie: What do you mean? Say more about that.
[00:14:29] Oumou: So, like, I have been talking a lot on my Instagram recently about the differences between boundaries and requests. And how they're just so, so different, but a lot of the times there's this blurred line experience as we're interacting with the two. And so I'll give an example of what I'm talking about. A sweet, juicy promise to myself might be, I'm no longer in the place where I'm picking up my phone after 8 PM because that's me time.
[00:15:00] A request sounds like, please don't call me after eight, because I'm talking to someone else, I'm making a request of someone else to change their behavior. Versus the first thing where it was just a sweet juicy promise to myself, I can choose to share that with others. Hey, I'm no longer in a place where I'm picking up the phone after 8 pm. Because it's me time.
[00:15:22] That's a boundary, but if I tell the person I don't want you to call me after eight, which is fine I can make requests requests are yummy and delicious. But that's a request.
[00:15:33] Josie: Yeah. This is so Amazing, this was so life changing to me to read your Thoughts on these two subjects because it was like yeah, that's where you lose your power with a boundary. Is when you put it on the other person to change in order for your quote unquote boundary to be upheld.
[00:15:55] Oumou: Yeah, your boundary can be upheld in all different kinds of ways, right? And, there's like different power dynamics that might make it difficult to maintain your relationship to set juicy promise to the boundary.
[00:16:07] However, boundaries are not things that you are going to be trying to make others do, make others see, make others understand, make others maneuver around. You can share it with others that you're co creating relationships with. And those that are like so about you and so about your love and so about your care are gonna hear that and go, wow, I just got an update. That's nice.
[00:16:32] Josie: Totally, yeah. And then you can like let go of control of that other person too.
[00:16:40] Oumou: Oh my gosh. Now that other person can just live their life the way that they need to. And you get to shift how you're relating, how your body is responding to whatever's being presented to you.
[00:16:50] Josie: Right, right. Amazing. And you said, were there two definitions?
[00:16:56] Oumou: Yeah, there's another one. So the second definition that I love, love, love is by Prentis Hemphill. And Prentice Hemphill says that boundaries are the distance at which I can love you and me simultaneously.
[00:17:10] Josie: Amazing.
[00:17:14] Oumou: What? So good. So good. Yeah. So good. And so this shows yet again that this boundary stuff is about, like, not making others do things. It's not about putting blocks up, right. Creating like distance. It's about me sharing aspects of me, me sharing aspects of how I'm like looking to create a world that feels yummy, nurturing, safe enough, all the words.
[00:17:44] And I want you to be a part of it. And so I'm going to share what it means to be a part of that. That's it. That's all that's going on.
[00:17:55] Josie: Yeah. And it's like an honor. It's like an invitation. It's like, oh, this person wants me to be a part of their world that feels good to them.
[00:18:03] Oumou: And it's so cool that a person knows what their world looks like and is willing to tell you what it means to be a part of their world. That's a gift. To everyone involved.
[00:18:12] Josie: Yeah. It's a total gift. Yeah. Amazing. Yes. I love those two definitions. For sure.
[00:18:20] Oumou: So those have knocked my socks off. For sure. My faves. I'm against every other boundary definition- I'm just kidding. But those two are my favorite.
[00:18:29] Josie: That's it. Yeah. No more. I love it.
[00:18:34] You talk about bids for care, do those relate to healthy boundaries? If so, yeah, what do you think?
[00:18:42] Oumou: That's a great question. So I definitely think that bids for care have to relate to boundaries. I also don't use healthy when I talk about boundaries because I think that like, Sometimes boundaries are like a little porous maybe, or sometimes boundaries are a little bit more firm.
[00:19:03] But I think with like words like health and unhealthy, it creates this like negative, or contributes, doesn't create, contributes to like negative stories we might have about ourselves when we don't do the thing right. It's like, oh, I had a bad boundary. It's like, no, it just wasn't too clear to you or the other person.
[00:19:21] Josie: Right, right. Totally.
[00:19:23] Oumou: So. Bid for care, so bids for care are absolutely related to boundaries and it's a framework and a verbiage that I came up with when I created Radical Mental Health First Aid, because I noticed that there were lots of different moments where people were. How do I not like, how do I say, trying to describe this thing that they were desiring for themselves or for others, but there wasn't really like, languaging for what was going on.
[00:19:54] And so I'm like, listening, listening, listening, and I've gotten some like, information in the past slash training about bids for connection. Which is like a phrase that comes from John Gottman, and the work that he does with couples.
[00:20:10] And so bid for connection is actually what inspired the bid for care languaging. And so those are really related, the bid for care is essentially a means of relationship building and it can look like body doubling, it can, and it's actions that contribute to like your experience of care.
[00:20:30] And so that can look like body doubling, that can look like somebody making meals for you, it can look like honestly anything. And it is what I believe that's going to contribute to our liberation and our ability to, like, access care in ways that feel yummy, in ways that are co created, in ways that have lasting impacts on our lineage.
[00:20:51] Josie: Wow. And what is body doubling?
[00:20:55] Oumou: Oh, body doubling! So body doubling is something that I learned from as it relates to like ADHD, where it's essentially having another body in the space, either virtually or physically. That body, that human doesn't have to be doing anything with you, but they're kind of just like there.
[00:21:12] And the thought is that having another human there helps to support the completion or even initiation of tasks. Right? So I'm a person where like... Maybe, I might hate cleaning my room by myself, but if I have another person in the room, right, who's, like, maybe doing another task, I'm more, I'm more apt to, like, initiate something. Maybe I'll put my clothes away, maybe I'll do this, right, and so that person doesn't even have to be helping me with the task, helping me with the care action, they're just there.
[00:21:41] Because sometimes I can just feel really, like, disorienting and, isolating to be doing life alone in that way.
[00:21:49] Josie: Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's, I've heard of that, a similar concept with grief, around grieving, to be like a way to manage or deal with grief could be to be with someone each doing your own thing.
[00:22:04] Oumou: Yes, yes. It's like parallel play.
[00:22:07] Josie: Yes. Yeah. Interesting. That's so cool.
[00:22:12] Oumou: Oh, so boundaries. Boundaries have to be a part of that because let's say I'm in a situation where I have a bid for care, I haven't been eating well this past week And I'm like, I'm probably gonna be like still struggling with whatever in this next week I'd like for someone to support me with like making sure that food enters, minimally my home, maximally my body.
[00:22:35] And so, I make a bid for care with like, my friends and I call them up and I'm like, Hey. I would love some support with like, meals and or eating. I make that bid for care, the person responds and says totally. That person though... In that totally has boundaries. They say, I will go grocery shopping for you.
[00:22:58] I can also order you food through Uber Eats or Grubhub, but I'm not in the position to do cooking for others. Boundary. So that that person's capacity is honored, right? And like what it is that they're able to navigate and do whatever. And then the other person who made the bid for care can get their needs met in a way that is responsive in a way that honors like the request to begin with.
[00:23:24] So everybody's care is being taken care of in that situation. And their boundaries are being honored.
[00:23:31] Josie: Yeah. And so a request, so the difference between a request and a bid for care would be...
[00:23:38] Oumou: Oh my gosh, no one's asked me that. So a difference between a request and a bid for care. I think bid for cares are more intentional and are more rooted in like relationship. And more rooted in let's say like systems and like networks of things versus requests where they can just be like off like one, What is it the English word you say? One off. Yeah.
[00:24:06] Josie: Okay. That makes sense. That makes sense.
[00:24:09] Oumou: Yeah. That's a good question. No one's asked me that.
[00:24:13] Josie: Nice. Okay. Yeah. And I love that. And I love that the bid for care is rooted in relationship. And like, to me, it feels like creating that community and that stability and Like mutual yeah, just mutual collaboration and love and community and care.
[00:24:34] Oumou: Exactly. Where like a person that I have no relationship with on the street might make a request of me. Maybe depending on like, I don't know, the conversation we get into, the request might transform into a bid for care, but a person I'm in a relationship with, or I'm intending to be in a relationship with, we might spend more time having language and co creating a situation, and so that's a bid for care.
[00:25:00] Josie: Yeah, nice. Okay, I love that. And I love how that invites the other person to then exercise boundaries. It's like this nice, yeah, this give and take.
[00:25:12] Oumou: Absolutely. And I think, like, with responding to people's bids for care, you also, as the responder, get to experience lots of healing if it's done in a way where, like, your consent is being centered and honored and in a way where your boundaries are being honored.
[00:25:26] You get to have these what is it called in therapy land? You get to have these reparative experiences. I think I'm using the wrong words, but that's what I'm going to go with. Reparative experiences where, like maybe in the past when you made an attempt to have boundaries, somebody shot them down and were like, you don't deserve that.
[00:25:45] I'm going to be trumping all over everything that you're talking about. But in this care relationship, you've got to test out the values. And the person was like, obviously, totally, yes, I love this juicy promise you just made to yourself. For sure I'm down. Yeah.
[00:25:59] Josie: Yeah. That's so healing. Yeah.
[00:26:02] Oumou: And that can be really healing.
[00:26:03] Like, oh, wow. Okay, I can do this. I deserve this.
[00:26:08] Josie: Right, right. And I can see how just this whole dynamic can lead to, like, freeing everybody.
[00:26:15] Oumou: Everyone involved, oh my gosh.
[00:26:21] Josie: Yeah. That seems like the answer to like, yeah, for everyone to be, exactly. I love that. So maybe we can brainstorm some like ideas or examples, like how folks can establish or strengthen healthy boundaries, but I'm not going to say healthy, just boundaries. We won't say healthy, in their lives or relationships.
[00:26:45] And especially like, in my mind, I'm thinking on their fertility journey. But just, you know, which just means really day to day. I mean, because everyone's also living their lives while they're on their fertility journey.
[00:26:57] Oumou: Absolutely. That's a great question. So I'm actually going to go and there's this like boundary sentence that I teach to people, though I talk about how boundaries, like, they come from within.
[00:27:10] And so though there's this like, sentence structure I might be showing you. It's also like consider it a playground. When you're using words to try to describe to others what your juicy promises are and how you can love yourself and them simultaneously. And so this is just an invitation to like play around with and transform into like ways that feels good for you.
[00:27:34] It sounds like you as well. Yeah, this formula is from somebody on Instagram. Their name is accountability mapping. Love them. Brilliant. So this is their boundary statements that I like, such a fan of it reads: I value blank, and I need blank, so I will blank. Sweet, juicy promise to yourself.
[00:28:10] Josie: Will you read it again? I love that.
[00:28:11] Oumou: Absolutely. I value blank, and I need blank, so I will blank. So that can be like, I value self care and I need time to myself, so I will be blocking off a day this week to hang out with myself.
[00:28:35] Josie: Nice, Yeah. Ugh. So simple. That structure is so beautifully simple and like, yeah, yeah, I love that. It's funny as you're reading it. I was thinking of an example in my head that relates to my wife and then you got to the I will part and I was like, Oh...
[00:28:57] Oumou: Oh, okay.
[00:29:00] Josie: Like, that's the hard part. It's like... No, I want her to do something.
[00:29:08] Oumou: You do something, please. And that is the difference, right?
[00:29:11] That's where I'm like, okay, so if you want somebody to do something as part of, like, your care needs, we'll just have to be honest and say, hey, I have a request of you.
[00:29:20] Josie: Right. So that would be the bid for care. Uh-Huh. Or a request.
[00:29:26] Oumou: Or a request. Exactly. Depending on what it sounds like.
[00:29:29] Josie: Okay. Got it. Okay. I know. I was like, no, I will not do anything, you will. I'm such an asshole.
[00:29:46] Oumou: No, listen. I mean. You're just a person trying to get your needs met and sometimes it's a little wonky.
[00:29:52] Josie: Yeah, totally. Oh my gosh. I love it. That's so funny. Okay. So that's it. That's how people can establish or strengthen or what's kind of, I'm imagining almost like strengthening a boundary muscle.
[00:30:09] Oumou: Exactly. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And so strengthening that muscle is going to take time and it's going to take practice. It's also going to take a specific kind of mind-body connection.
[00:30:24] Josie: Say more about that. What does that mean?
[00:30:26] Oumou: So, so with boundaries, There is a kind of well, number one this, this connection between the mind and the body is something that French philosopher, boo boo, booty hole man, Descartes came up with, and it really has affected all of us in a negative way, right?
[00:30:45] Because the mind and the body are not separate. They are not separate. And so, people's belief that they are separate, it's part of why some people believe they can will themselves to do things. Why some people believe that, like, it's mind over body. That they can, that, and a lot of people also somatically, only sense things above their shoulder.
[00:31:14] Everything else, I don't know what's going on. Because that's how they've just learned to navigate the world. And so, strengthening your mind body connection really looks like playing in your body in a different kind of way. Being aware of your body in the world in a different kind of way.
[00:31:34] Somewhat like doing this practice of like scanning, like literally imagining a scanner from the top of your head down to your feet and seeing what you're sensing. What you're noticing, right? And so some people have a really are really in tune to this kind of stuff and some aren't. And so there isn't like a right or wrong way to have mind body connection, but it's really important to know that the mind body connection exists for all people.
[00:32:00] Josie: Wow. Yeah. And for me, as you say that, I'm like, I think I would have a hard time or I do have a hard time finding the language of what I'm feeling. Cause it's like, I've learned to associate certain feelings with like, Oh, anxiety, that's anxiety or that's sadness or whatever. It's not like, I can't be like, or it takes more effort for me to be like.
[00:32:24] Oumou: You're not sensing it per se.
[00:32:26] Josie: Yeah. Is it warmth? Or is it tingling? Or is it like what the actual sensation is?
[00:32:32] Oumou: Exactly, So some people like, who are able, what are they called parents in laws or what are they called?
[00:32:39] Is that what they're called? In laws. My boundaries with my in laws feel a little a little rugged, feel like leather spikes. They're rough, they feel heavy, right? And so that's how they're describing boundaries with this group of people, where like, they're like, my boundaries with my partner feels more like a really calm sea.
[00:33:04] And I'm like, that feels different. And that feels important to like, notice. And then you ask, how did you notice that? Well, my body, when I'm with my in laws, tenses up, my shoulders drop. Everything about my heart is protected so that I'm not harmed. Right? And so that helps to like, that helps this person to understand that there's like this like prickly protection that they now have because they're trying to protect themselves from this group of people that they don't have that great of a relationship with.
[00:33:31] Josie: Right. Oh, interesting. So it's almost like two phases of like, feeling like what the boundary itself feels like? Yes. And then kind of interpreting that through the lens of your body.
[00:33:45] Oumou: Okay. Yup. And so boundaries are like, it's a whole world, right? We have like, the boundaries that we can say to others, and they can sound like that boundary statement I brought up earlier.
[00:33:57] Or we can like, describe the feeling. And the sensation of our boundary as well, which changes everything. And so again, that's not necessarily the goal. Not all boundaries will sound like that. That's not always necessary for the situation that you're in or like what's going on. But, it's also pretty helpful to be able to be like, use your body as a guide for what boundaries need to happen for you.
[00:34:20] Josie: Right. And I'm imagining that would also take, like, almost depersonalize it. If you're trying to communicate a boundary by just saying, instead of saying the boundary, you could say, I feel this in my body. When this happens, and it's almost like you're just sharing that information.
[00:34:43] Oumou: And that's like a way of, not like pointing blame at anyone. Not you, not me. I'm just naming sensations that I'm noticing. And I want to know what you think about that. Because I think we're in a relationship with one another and that you might care. Right. Yeah.
[00:35:01] Josie: Tell me more. Do you care? Yeah. Totally. That makes sense. So kind of in that vein, I'm thinking how this relates to pleasure.
[00:35:15] Because I'm, yeah, I'm imagining like that, that seems like the next step or kind of a deeper level is, I know you talk about pleasure and play, which I absolutely love. And both of those things are definitely you know, things that people, especially who are on a fertility journey really lose touch with.
[00:35:34] You know, is the pleasure aspect of trying to conceive and the play aspect of anything. I mean, things get so focused and serious and medicalized so fast.
[00:35:44] Oumou: Oh my gosh. And that, that's not always the best soil for things to grow.
[00:35:50] Josie: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So I wonder, I would love to just talk more about kind of the importance or benefits of pleasure. Why is pleasure important and if they're connected at all to boundaries, if either of those are connected at all, or what are your thoughts on that?
[00:36:07] Oumou: So, my thoughts, pleasure and play are things that were taught out of us as we grew. Yeah. One of my biggest like, I could probably do a multiple hour podcast on how upset I am that at some point when we're young people, we get recess taken away from us.
[00:36:32] Josie: Totally. Totally.
[00:36:36] Oumou: I need recess as a teenager for sure. Yeah. Like, and so I bring up this, like the school, the school and education system is a part of why people's relationship to play is the way that it is. The prison industrial complex is a part of why people's relationship to play is the way that it is.
[00:36:55] Right. Which is closely related to school. They go hand in hand. They're besties. Those two are like systems that Effect us from the moment that we're born, forward. And so, with this like, effect of these systems essentially telling us that work needs to be the center of our world and play needs to be put not only on the back burner, but maybe even be left for the children and they only allow you to be a child for real for real until you're like in the second grade.
[00:37:33] Josie: Totally, totally.
[00:37:35] Oumou: Maybe third. So with that kind of like mass teaching to people it really teaches us A kind of disembodiment and a kind of disconnection to our ability to be creative. To this like part of our brain that really needs to be like turned on in this way so that we can think of ourselves, think of our relationships, think of our future in ways that are imaginative, in ways that abolition calls for, right?
[00:38:07] It's really hard to think about abolition in those ways if we are being suppressed by these systems and our body mind connection is being like shut off in all these different kinds of ways. So play and pleasure I think are necessary for the bodymind to thrive. I think that they are tools for survival.
[00:38:27] I think that they are necessary for development. Teenage development, young adults, adults, older adults, like I'm talking about everyone, needs play. Everyone needs pleasure. And something that I try to make mention of is that with pleasure, it does not have to be sexual pleasure only that's being regarded.
[00:38:50] Pleasure is sexual and non sexual things. And so I have like different lists of things that you can play with and, and, and, Think about as it relates to creating a routine for yourself with either pleasure at the center or play at the center because we need it.
[00:39:08] Josie: Yeah, totally. I know, I was just thinking too, like we need that pleasure and that play in order to be in a creative state. So if, if that's like creating another human, you know, accessing that is so important.
[00:39:27] Oumou: It's so important, if that's creating another human? Word. Yeah, you're so right. There's so much creativity that goes into that. Absolutely.
[00:39:36] Josie: Yeah, totally. Yeah. And my oldest is in fifth grade and yeah, he's just complaining that they took away, they used to have two recesses and they took away one of them and now it's only 15 minutes.
[00:39:49] Oumou: Oh, I would be pissed.
[00:39:54] Josie: Yeah, it's awful. And like, he'll come home and want to like, literally run around the block, get on his bike, get on the trampoline, get- we have a rowing machine, gets on the rowing machine. He just has like unbelievable amounts of energy to express.
[00:40:12] Oumou: 15 minutes? And I have to learn for the rest of the time this stinks. He's right. I'm with him.
[00:40:19] Josie: Yeah. And also like the talk about like the disconnect between body and mind, it's like, there's the, everything's just focused on the mind and you just exist in your head for the whole day.
[00:40:30] Oumou: For the whole you just exist in your head for the whole day. That's not good for anyone. And then like I could also talk about how you have to ask permission to use the bathroom and sometimes teachers say no Yeah, and then you go, Oh, I guess I'm going to ignore my pee.
[00:40:49] Josie: Yeah, totally. I know.
[00:40:52] Oumou: It teaches you to not trust the sensations in your body, to not respond to your body's cues, and that has long term negative implications on human beings.
[00:41:01] Josie: Yes, agreed. Agreed. Yeah, totally. Ugh, yes. And I also hear about this term a lot, the bodymind, in like disability justice world.
[00:41:13] Oumou: For sure. Absolutely. Part of the reason why anytime I talk about the body, I say bodymind just specifically because of influences from the disability justice world, right?
[00:41:26] That is mainly where I have started to like do this discovering of the influence of Decartes and this like mind body separation and how detrimental that is to all people, but especially disabled folks, right? And so there is this honoring that I think I try to do when I make sure I say bodymind.
[00:41:48] Josie: Yeah. I love that. I love that so much. There's an episode that we did I don't know, last year, I think at some point with Shayda Kafai, who wrote Crip Kinship. It's one of my favorite books. Yeah, so good. Yeah. And we talked about that term bodymind and yeah, how important that is. Yeah. And you've said that pleasure connects you to your bodymind.
[00:42:11] Oumou: Absolutely. It is something like something that I try to infuse in, I think, all sessions that I do with people, even the workshops that I do with people, even the podcast that I do with people is to ensure that like, there's a pleasurable aspect of something happening in the moment so that I can be connected to my body mind, which will then allow me to be present to the moment that I'm looking to like, experience and remember in a different kind of way, even if it's not like mind remember, it's body remember.
[00:42:49] Josie: Interesting. So What is the difference between play and pleasure? Is there a difference?
[00:42:54] Oumou: You know, I might use those two words and have different lists underneath those two words, but do I think that they're different? For real, for real, no. I think they're super similar, like really closely related and what someone might call pleasure, someone else might say like, Oh, that's a playful thing for me.
[00:43:12] And I might go, that makes complete sense. I love it. Go off. Okay.
[00:43:17] Josie: Okay, cool. Nice.
[00:43:18] Oumou: Yeah. I think pleasure can be really playful. I think playing can be really pleasurable. Yeah. Play is to pleasure as pleasure is to play.
[00:43:27] Josie: Yeah, totally. One could be like an entry point to the other and vice versa.
[00:43:32] Oumou: Portals to one another, so. Same coin, different side.
[00:43:37] Josie: Yeah, yeah. I love that. That's so cool. So what could a pleasure focused or a play focused routine look like? I, you talk about these routines, and what are some benefits of having such a routine?
[00:43:51] Oumou: Oh, the benefits. So, something, I will say that at some point, someone on my, my Instagram in the Instagram comments were like, Routines are for privileged white people!
[00:44:01] I was like, okay. Okay. So. Whoa. Alright. Okay. Got it. So I'm going to name that, I can, I can see why that person had lots of feelings about seeing the word. Because there's like historical things that come with people being able to have routines. I want to name that like routine is just a word for like a practice of doing things maybe consistently or semi consistently.
[00:44:32] And though maybe routines in the way that this person was like screaming about is something that was afforded to only some people. I think we all now in this day and age. have different kinds of routines, even if it's like a routine "gifted" in quotes by capitalism.
[00:44:48] Josie: Right, right. Totally.
[00:44:50] Oumou: It's still a routine. You know what I mean? So, pleasure and play focused routines I think are really like List of invitations that I'd created for people to support them and being creative and thinking about how they can incorporate play and pleasure into their everyday life versus leaving play and pleasure to be things to do and on the weekends.
[00:45:14] So, one of the reasons why I think I burnt out a couple of years ago is because I was the person that was only doing play and pleasure on the weekends. And which usually meant I ended up not doing it because I had to do my errands, schedule appointments, go grocery shopping, like do all of these life admin things which ended up being more important than play and pleasure, right?
[00:45:37] And so having these routines is a way of, like, ensuring that you are relating to these two words, two values, two ways of being in ways that are, like, centering them. So I created these two different routines with different, like, ideas of what you can do in the day to day to incorporate play and pleasure, because something that I was hearing was, like, well, I don't have time to do this.
[00:46:06] And I'm like, you don't need extra time to do this, at all. It can be the time that you're already doing things, you're just shifting your, the level of presence, you're shifting the intention, and maybe you're like sprinkling in a different energy of something or like a tool or an aspect, external thing.
[00:46:25] And so for the pleasure focus routine. We have wake up, something for the soul or spirit, which can be literally anything. Something for the brain, which can be anything. Spend some time outside, get some fresh air. I also have do nothing as part of the pleasure focus routine, because I think that we don't always learn to associate nothingness with pleasure.
[00:46:50] And sometimes a lot of our lives is, spent in the nothing zone.
[00:46:55] Josie: Totally. Totally.
[00:46:57] Oumou: We have something to enhance your space. Something for or with your community. Something creative, something younger you would love. Move your body, sleep. And so that is something that makes you feel alive or presence, something for your heart, something that offers you nourishment.
[00:47:20] Literally, anything could fit in this.
[00:47:23] Josie: Yeah. And this one was the pleasure one? Yeah, this is the pleasure one. The pleasure one. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Totally.
[00:47:30] Oumou: And then we have the play one, which I really, really like. So for play, we have wake up. Play with something that centers your senses, play with other people or beings, play with things that let you get messy or dirty. Experiment with your play, play a game with rules, play a game with no rules, watch someone else play, direct someone else's play consensually, play a game that feels silly to play, and then sleep.
[00:47:59] Josie: Mm. Nice. And you could do just one of those in a day.
[00:48:05] Oumou: Just one of them. And you don't even have to do every single one of them. You can just choose to do one of the things on the list. Maybe the aspiration is to get to a point where, like, you have the time freedom to have a day that looks like this, because not everyone has that kind of time, you know?
[00:48:21] Right. Yeah. But I think these are suggestions, invitations, portals for how you could structure parts of your day. So, I work with like, some corporate America people that are burnt out and they're like, I'm tired, I'm working a lot, I never have time for play and pleasure. And I'm like, we have to make time.
[00:48:41] So, how can you make your shower more pleasurable? Because you have to shower every day. You're gonna be in there. Right. That's not extra time. How can I make your shower more pleasurable? And they're like, Okay, I can listen to music or a podcast. Yes, you can. Wow. That's cool, maybe you can add some, some nice, like scents as well, like put a candle on while you're showering now that's changed your whole shower experience.
[00:49:06] Josie: Right, right. Yeah. It can be so simple.
[00:49:11] Oumou: Yeah. It can be so simple. Yeah.
[00:49:13] Josie: I love that. And where can folks find those lists? I think I've seen them on your Instagram.
[00:49:20] Oumou: I have them on my Instagram. Yeah. And I try to post them like. Once a week.
[00:49:24] Josie: Okay, cool. So people can find them. Nice. Good. Yeah, I love that. I love that so much.
[00:49:31] Yeah, I think that I'm really resistant to play, I'm so resistant to it. And I notice that especially around my kids because they want to play, and I'm always just like ugh, I don't have the energy or desire.
[00:49:52] Maybe it's cause it's not like my version of playing or what would feel like playing for me, or.
[00:49:57] Oumou: It might not be your version of play a part of you, like, like not to get too therapisty, but a part of you might be having some like thing from the past or like a childhood wound or something popping up with having to sit and play with your kids in this way.
[00:50:14] I'm like, what it means to be doing this and maybe like stories about not being able to access this version of this thing. And so your body's like having a reaction, it could be anything.
[00:50:24] Josie: Totally. I mean, I was an only child. I still am an only child. That hasn't changed. But like, so I didn't do a lot of. Like playing was by myself or with adults, another adult or my mom's friends or, you know, so it was, it was like. Yeah, play is really, I watch, I have two kids and they play together and I'm always like, wow, what a different childhood.
[00:50:54] Oumou: It's so different. Yeah, they're like interacting, making noises, co creating.
[00:51:02] Josie: Yeah, I'll never forget when they were really young. Let's see. I think my youngest was just walking. So maybe a year and my oldest, they're two years apart. And they were spitting in each other's faces over and over and just laughing so hard.
[00:51:19] Oumou: Yo that is so nasty, that's hilarious!
[00:51:24] Josie: And I was just like shocked and kind of grossed out and also like fascinated and laughing and they were just loving it. And it's like one of my favorite memories of them.
[00:51:35] Oumou: Me and my little brother used to have like burp competitions when we were younger, younger. Just like drinking beverages and then trying to see how loud you can burp. Because it was fun and silly.
[00:51:47] Josie: Yeah, totally. Yeah, they just, they're constantly making up games and like things to do together. And just, yeah, it's wild. Yeah.
[00:51:56] Oumou: And so I think that even gives me then maybe more of a glimpse in that maybe that part of your brain hasn't always had time to be on. Yeah, yeah, right and so there's like a maybe like an initiation thing like kind of putting the the key in the ignition like it's like. It's got to give us some time so you can turn on.
[00:52:15] Josie: Totally, totally. It's so rusty. It's so old and rusty. Yeah.
[00:52:19] Oumou: Yeah, it just needs a little bit of time and attention.
[00:52:22] Josie: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Oh my gosh.
[00:52:25] Oumou: Because you can learn to play at any age. Some people are like, I haven't played my whole life. I'm like, well, you can start today, right now. Even if you haven't played your whole life, like, and that whole life can be 50 years.
[00:52:37] And I'm telling you, 50, starting, starting to play at 50 is not, is not that bad, honestly. Like, 50 is young for starting to play. Truly.
[00:52:46] Josie: Totally. Yeah, I feel that. I'm 44 and I'm, I feel like I'm just, you know, now kind of revisiting that and loosening up around that because it's just been, yeah, really latent or not developed at all my whole life.
[00:53:03] Yeah. So how can people find you and support you and buy all your things?
[00:53:10] Oumou: Yay. So people can find me on Instagram @connectwithoumou, C. O. N. N. E. C. T. W. I. T. H. O. U. M. O. U. My website name is also the same. www.connectwithoumou.com. I also have a newsletter that I haven't actually interacted with since it's creation.
[00:53:32] You can follow me there. I might be doing something on it soon, you never know. I might pop up with it. I might pop up on there again soon. Yeah. Yeah, I went and saw how many subscribers I have. I was like, yo! This is a lot.
[00:53:47] Josie: Use that, you should be using that.
[00:53:48] Oumou: I need to use it. I should use it. I have a newsletter, definitely sign up for that. I will use it again someday. And what else? I might be doing a podcast of my own someday, so like, maybe look out for that.
[00:54:06] Yeah, and I do, I do a series of workshops every month that I'll be doing for the foreseeable future, because that's my jam. Radical Mental Health First Aid. I have like four different versions that I do, and I can also offer this to your school, your workplace, your organization, your family, whoever.
[00:54:29] Josie: Yeah. Dude, that was, your course blew my mind. I was so permanently changed after taking your course. It was like, I felt like I had been looking for something like that and it does not exist. I mean, not that I have found,
[00:54:50] Oumou: I don't think it exists either, to be honest with you. I don't.
[00:54:54] And I think that's why the impact is, it's going the way that it is because it doesn't exist. And like, I'm not looking to exploit people for this to exist. Like the pay scale for this thing is so nice. It's so lovely. I've even bartered with people. I'm like, don't give me dollars. You want to send me some art? I'll literally take your art.
[00:55:12] Josie: Amazing. Yeah.
[00:55:14] Oumou: So, show up. It's really cool. It's really fun. And I'm not the only person that shares, which I find really great too. There's lots of wisdom that's offered via the participants.
[00:55:24] Josie: I know. That was actually one of my favorite parts of the is it a workshop or a course?
[00:55:29] What is the word?
[00:55:30] Oumou: You know, workshop, course, training. I use those interchangeably. Yeah.
[00:55:35] Josie: Yeah. It was, that was one of my favorite parts was just like everyone's contribution and the participants there were incredible. I mean, just other folks who signed up and I was just like, learning so much from, you know, just the chat.
[00:55:50] Yeah, it was amazing. I'm like getting goosebumps right now thinking about it.
[00:55:55] Oumou: Yeah. Yeah. It's really, really, really, it's really good. And I am going to toot my own horn. Toot, toot! It's really good.
[00:56:02] Josie: Yes. Toot it, toot it.
[00:56:06] Oumou: Thank you. Yeah. Well, that's, that's me. That's what I'm doing. Follow me on those things. I have a website. Yeah, and I'm happy to have been able to talk with you about all the things today.
[00:56:17] Josie: Yeah, thank you so much for joining us. I know people are going to just learn so much. This is going to be so amazing for folks to listen to.
[00:56:27] Oumou: Yay! I'm glad we were able to do it.
[00:56:28] Josie: Awesome.
[00:56:31] Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility Podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz. If you like the show and want to hear more, tap subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, and please leave us a review. It really truly helps.
[00:56:57] The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and produced by Rozarie Productions with original music by Jen Korte.