Episode 73 - Veronica Agard: Love as Intergenerational Wealth and Legacy Building (Part 2)
This is the second part to the conversation with Veronica Agard, also known as Ifáṣadùn Fásanmí (she/her). This episode is a deeper dive into our responsibility of breaking cycles and starting new cycles for the next generation. This includes living our truths, holding intergenerational compassion, honoring people while they are alive, documenting and archiving, and much more.
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Episode Transcript:
Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.
[00:00:00] Jonas: I'm Jonas Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our Whole Selves.
[00:00:32] Hi friend! I'm coming to you with some, a little bit of sad news today. I've made the really difficult decision to stop offering the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, so today will be our very last episode. Ugh. I do feel a little heartbroken about that. But I am also just so unbelievably proud of this podcast and all that we were able to do to put this out into the world.
[00:00:59] I want to give a really special huge thanks to my producer, Miranda, and to my assistant, Anza, and my past assistants as well, Jozelle and Bryce. It's just, it's been such an incredible labor of love for me, and having your support along the way has meant truly the world. I've loved receiving your comments and your messages and letters has been so heartwarming and has made all of this so worth it.
[00:01:27] The podcast will live on, on all your podcast platforms. So you can continue to go listen to all the episodes. If you haven't heard them all, I highly recommend just starting from the beginning and listening through to all 73 of them. So yeah, just an incredible archive that will still exist for you and also on my website the episodes will live and the transcripts are available for each episode on there also.
[00:01:54] The Qmunity is still going to live on as well in some way shape or form so please you know, continue to come over there and you'll be able to see the video versions of the episode still and all of that good stuff. So definitely still come join us in the Qmunity, which you can access from my website, intersectionalfertility.com.
[00:02:15] So I am just feeling very nostalgic today about thinking about the end of this podcast. And I know it kind of came abruptly and I apologize for that. It was, It was due to a lot of unforeseen circumstances in my personal life, and also just kind of a lack of resources to keep it going, unfortunately.
[00:02:34] Yeah, it does take a lot to keep a podcast going, which I'm sure if any of you have done one, that you know that too. So, I hope that you enjoy this part two conversation with Veronica from Ancestors in Training, who is truly an amazing human. I enjoyed this part two so much. I'm so glad we decided to do this part two to our conversation.
[00:02:56] I felt like we finally really got into the kind of the depth of our conversation in this part two, like more of the nitty gritty. So it was really beautiful. I can't wait for you to hear it. Wishing you so much love, keep showing up for each other, keep showing up for Palestinian liberation, keep calling representatives, keep marching just so much love to you and I will see you when I see you.
[00:03:20] So much love.
[00:03:31] All right, yay, we're back with part two with Veronica. Ugh, I'm so excited to have you here again and I'm going to read your bio again just to kind of refresh folks's memory and reintroduce you.
[00:03:45] Veronica Agard is a poet, writer, community educator, and connector at the intersections of Black identity, wellness, representation, and culture. She experiments with creative healing modalities and puts theories learned into practice. She curated The Who Heals the Healer series, and the conference of the same name, and facilitates the Ancestors in Training educational project. Her initiatives are housed in her freelance platform, Vera Icon, LLC.
[00:04:17] Described as living in the future, Veronica is guided by the past and carries out her dreams in the present. Welcome back, Veronica. I'm so happy to have you.
[00:04:28] Veronica: Thanks so much for having me back. I'm glad that we were able to do part two. I'm really looking forward to picking up where we left off.
[00:04:36] Jonas: Yes, same. So will you share again with folks your pronouns and where you're joining us from today?
[00:04:43] Veronica: Yeah, sure, so I am calling from Ramapough Lenape land, which is known currently as Rockland County, New York, specifically Airmont. I use she, her pronouns. I'm also known as Ifáṣadùn Fásanmí in my tradition. And like I talked about in the last time, I was like, I don't really have my, my little name plate.
[00:05:04] I have it on this time because I'm prepared for when folks see the video. This is very much like a white on white background right now. I'm in my whites in a very like pale colored room. With some like slightly religious stuff behind me because I'm in my grandmother's room. But, yeah.
[00:05:23] Jonas: I love it. Cute. I know, it's very peaceful. Very peaceful vibes. Yeah. Yeah. So for those of you who have not watched the Intersectional Fertility podcast episodes, you can access those in our free Qmunity. So you can find that on my Instagram profile at @intersectionalfertility or on my website intersectionalfertility.com and just click on Qmunity.
[00:05:47] And you can join the free Qmunity and watch all these episodes and you can enable captions if you need as well. So last time, kind of where we left off, we were talking about our responsibility as ancestors in training, as people on a fertility journey and having this responsibility of bringing in this next generation and kind of acting as that bridge, something that you talk about as being like that bridge between ancestors and descendants.
[00:06:17] And I just love thinking about that through the lens of fertility and bringing that in. One of the things that you said that I absolutely loved was that it's not enough to talk about what we're not going to do with this next generation. But what, what cycles are we going to start?
[00:06:34] How are we going to change things basically? And yeah, I just, I love that. And so, and kind of a part of what you said with that was like part of our responsibility is living our truths so that our descendants after us can live their truth. So yeah, anything more to say around that, that we didn't get to?
[00:06:55] Veronica: Yeah, I mean, I, on social media, I see very often that And I don't know when this happened, but somewhere in the, the beginning of the pandemic, like everybody was forced to sit with a lot of different things, right? I overall wish it did not take a whole pandemic for people to do that.
[00:07:16] I really wish it did not involve a whole bunch of loss of life, loss of ways of being, trauma, all the things right, like speaking of epigenetics. And like future generations was like, yeah, we're definitely... because even in some of my conversations with my friends and my family, I'll be like, Oh, yeah, that was last summer. And I was talking about like summer 2019. That was not last summer.
[00:07:38] And like, that's a silly example, but I'm just like, okay, if it's messing or, you know, It's making my brain a little extra squiggly around time and like space and like what that is. The good news is I'm already like, okay, what is time anyway? Like, I'm like, before we started recording, I named that I'm going to be 33, probably close to the time when this comes out, on the 21st.
[00:08:00] I'm a solstice baby and like very much like, you know, I'm still, you know, young enough for like, I'll be like, ma, like help like to my mom for like something that really doesn't need her help. I just want her help. Totally. And then having the privilege of aged enough, especially in this moment with everything that's happening in Palestine and the Congo and South Sudan and Sudan, like just, and unfortunately, there's a long list of places that I can talk about right now and I hate that.
[00:08:30] But the, the thing about aging, I'm like, it's a gift because there are people that did not long enough in very recent memory to like get, get a gray streak right where my mom has it. Except then also my dad's genetics are like kicking in so I have like a triple situation. Like I have one streak here I've got like little baby, you know, distinguished fake sideburns that are trying to come in and I'm just like bro I know genetics are a thing and again bro is used in a gender neutral here But like I'm just like what is going on?
[00:09:03] But like Little things like that. I'm like, okay, what is time like I've old I've aged old long enough to Look like my parents did at this age, which is wild. And thinking about especially in the sense of like Their journey of like having me like I'll be 33. My parents were 30 and 31 when they had me.
[00:09:24] So I'm like, I would have been like a little, tot oh, I would have been either in the terrible twos or three very much like I would have been a toddler, like running around and all the things. And I'm very much like, wow, I, you know, I can't imagine that because this whole idea of like having our stuff together at any given point.
[00:09:45] The more that I age, the more that I'm like, wow, like my parents like really were figuring stuff out on the fly, like a lot of parents are and like these whole expectations of like, you got to do this and you got to do this and it has to be by the letter and to the T and especially because I'll be 33.
[00:10:03] So like 90s babies, like we were definitely those kind of, we were the kids that. Our parents like had to read the books about and like all the things. And had this person telling that person how to raise their kids, like a whole bunch of, you know, experimentation and some of it was good. And then some of it was not.
[00:10:24] So I think that I say all that to say that one of the things that I saw and continue to see is the conversations about cycle breaking. Right. I believe Dr. Mariel Buqué has a book that if it's not out yet, it's about to be out. She was one of the first people that I saw with her tea talks and, you know, she literally sits and gets a cup of tea and like, she, you know, talks about some of the things that she sees with her therapy clients or some of the things that some of the conversations that should or should not happen.
[00:10:57] And I think that those. little viral clips. And I don't say little to diminish the work. I say little because they're very short. I think that that is a part of how she and others have really sparked conversations around cycle breaking and also cycle generation. I'm also thinking about the conversation I had with now friend in my head um, Cynthia of rooted in reflection, right.
[00:11:21] Who does a lot of inner child work. And that's a part of her bread and butter and I'm also thinking about Brujas of Brooklyn, who have been doing a lot of cycle breaking day long type festivities where they invite other people in. So I think that the good news is the pandemic times and this, like this time of year in the Northern Hemisphere of, a lack of daylight, right?
[00:11:47] Like we lose daylight, the days are short, the nights are long. The days are short, the nights are long in that kind of nighttime space. I think that. The pandemic was a big nighttime space. And still is. And I don't want to say was to mean like it's not still happening. It's definitely still is, but the big part of it, or the, you know, when everything was shut down, seemingly, I think that that was a big nighttime for a lot of people, it was a big invitation to do shadow work, to think about cycle breaking, to think about things that they want to start as opposed to focusing on the negative, because it's not that we can't focus on what we want to change or what we want to interrupt. I think that that's important.
[00:12:30] But I also think that it's just as if not more important to be able to utilize our imagination in a radical sense to actually think about the things that we want to generate and the the worlds that we want to be a part of and what's possible. Because a lot of the the global conflict that's happening right now, And unfortunately what will you know, what will happen.
[00:12:54] Just because we're swimming in the things and hyper capitalism and neocolonialism and all the things. Yeah. That means because we're experiencing it and we're witnessing it, that means that somebody created it. And that means that if somebody created it, that means that it can be undone or something that can be, invited instead.
[00:13:18] I'm thinking specifically in, and this goes with ancestral things a little too on the nose actually, and I haven't talked about this yet. So this is actually the perfect space to talk about it. My grandfather was born in the area that Venezuela is trying to annex.
[00:13:39] My grandfather was born in Essequibo, Guyana, which is the region where a lot of the, Indigenous folks who at Guyana are a part of. Basically the two thirds, if you, if you're watching this and you don't know what I'm talking about, the quick version is Venezuela is going through what it's going through, it's trying to gather resources.
[00:14:05] A lot of people from what I can see are struggling. For lack of better term, that's actually an oversimplification. But, like many, a colonizing force, Venezuela is taking something out of the playbook and what they're doing is that they're going to try and do a land grab. If this sounds familiar to what's happening in Palestine, again, same playbook, right?
[00:14:28] We're living in a time where we can see people picking stuff up from the playbook and being like, wait, what? Like, didn't we, like, didn't we learn that allegedly, like, didn't we learn from them? Like, oh, word. Okay. That's why when y'all talk about post colonialism, I'm like, ha ha. Anyway, so, the region that the president of Venezuela tried to, not tried to, is attempting to annex from Guyana is to, it basically takes up two thirds of what Guyana actually is.
[00:14:58] And in the sense of colonization wasn't that long ago, and the key of the, the sun never set on the British empire, Guyana borders Venezuela I believe Suriname is on the right side of it and then Brazil is underneath and then Trinidad is right next door. Guyana culturally is a part of the West Indies or the Caribbean because it was colonized by the British.
[00:15:26] So a lot of folks there are African descended or South Asian descended, right? So what that means is you're either a descendant of folks who were indentured or folks who were enslaved, right? Both lineages are really complicated and there's already a lot going on with trying to reconcile those lineages and also there's Indigenous folks, there's folks who recent immigrants from big diaspora, a lot of diasporic folks that call their place home.
[00:16:00] And Guyana is only, they only gained their independence in 1966. So they're a very young country trying to figure it out and do the things in spite of what was done to them. And then here comes Venezuela being like, and I'm like, you know. Because the thing is, especially in the sense of, the quote that I say all the time, like when our descendants look to the challenges of our times, what are they going to say that we did?
[00:16:28] One of the things that they're going to say that we did is to have conversations like these. To like, sew the seeds and like draw the lines of connectivity. Right. Even if it's just like what I just did, like, that's enough. Right. Because sometimes people aren't even talking about it. But then ancestrally the wild part of that is, is that this actually is a part of like the Ancestors in Training origin story, because what I'm about to talk about is a part of the reason why I got curious about like ancestry and ancestral veneration in the first place.
[00:16:58] In addition to what I said in the last episode, Because my grandparents split up when my dad was very little, the last time we saw, and by we I mean my late grandmother and my dad, saw my grandfather was in Georgetown, Guyana. And the region that has been annexed you essentially cross the Essequibo River and like that's where it starts.
[00:17:23] So this, this line that is being drawn is like right near the capital. Of Guyana. And the question now becomes. Since we're living in a time where people are continuing to do what they did in the historical or the recent past where they're fighting over resources. And somebody said it years ago that the future wars are going to be over water.
[00:17:46] I wish I remembered who said it, shout out to that person. I also studied international studies, so like all of the things come up when I'm thinking about these kinds of things and I'm like, oh, okay, word. Like the Essequibo region has some of the, the best resources that have been untouched.
[00:18:04] It's a similar thing to, What was happening and still is happening in Brazil where they're trying to take care of the indigenous stewards now to counteract what was done in the past president, who was like their version of Trump. So like all of the ways in which things are interconnected because the world is smaller, right?
[00:18:22] Because we know what's going on at a click, right? Because we have access to these things. I think that it's our responsibility. To, and this is a dance, right? To stay as informed as feels good to you, but also to not... to not put your head in the sand either, to find ways to plug in, to find ways to show up.
[00:18:43] Right. Like I think for me, the Guyana case specifically is challenging for me because I've always wanted to go, especially every time I go to Brazil, I'm like, yo, I really need to make a stop. But cause now I'm like, damn, I don't know if I can go see the land that birthed my grandfather safely. Or not yet, you know, and like thinking about it that way in the sense of like.
[00:19:10] On a literal sense of like how we got here of like me being able to exist in this form that I do and I'm like, okay, well, if this series of events didn't happen, then like, if my grandmother didn't split from my grandfather, bring my dad and my uncle to New York, then my parents wouldn't have met at college and then I wouldn't exist, or I might exist, but I might exist in a different combination, whatever.
[00:19:37] Basically understanding that these times that we're living in, and especially like these kind of nighttime spaces of like things that have been done in the dark that are coming out into the light, really, it's an invitation to to find those kind of nighttime spaces within yourself. And again, I say invitation, because everything is rooted in consent.
[00:20:01] Yeah, I could say all of this wonderful stuff. And someone's like, nah, yeah, right. That's completely fair. Like, I don't want. Somebody to listen to this and be like, well, Veronica said this, like, no. Invitation, I'm not like being like boop for somebody's head word to Oumou around consent within care.
[00:20:21] Right. Like just very much like this is what it is. This is what it could be. But I also think that. Like that is also like super generative and like cycle breaking and like something for our descendants to write like around and also parenting and like caregiving as well around like especially during the holiday season of like, Not forcing children to give that person a hug, right?
[00:20:49] And like I hate that like that is a I hate that that's so universal of a thing that we all kind of get it when we hear that of like that one person. Now obviously there was probably some trauma and some things and people didn't have the language of the tools to take care of the person So then it just perpetuated.
[00:21:07] Like those are some cycles that we want to interrupt. Yeah. So I think that's some of the work that like the folks that I just named, like Dr. Buqué, Oumou and Cynthia, others like all of us, like you as well. Like we're all interrupting some of those things and then we're creating something instead, right?
[00:21:24] We're creating podcasts. We're creating literature where like we're going to do it. I'm going to speak it into existence. We're going to reach our fundraiser goal for the Ancestors in training deck. And that's the thing, that's something that people can hold in their hands. Right. And I think that that really came from a space of being like, all right, like having this platform.
[00:21:47] It's not that it doesn't mean anything, but it felt very much like if I can't activate it in a way, like for these kinds of times, then what am I doing? Right. And like going very much back to the drawing board of like, okay, like figure out what to do. Okay. How can you, okay. You're not hosting events right now because LOL at hosting events, like, but.
[00:22:09] Can you share something? And that's how we ended up getting publicly anyway, the, the, the prompts so for folks that see it on social media, like, like, Oh my God, I'm like, that's just what I used to use and still use in circles in ceremony. So anybody who knows or has attended any of my workshops, You get props, you get all the things, you get all the stuff that's written.
[00:22:36] Instagram has only seen what I've been doing for the past six, going on seven years. Like I'm only just like over the past year, literally a year ago, switched some of the format of the posts. People are like, Oh my God, I'm like, yo, like it's for me, like, yo, this is what it's been. Right. Like, welcome. Like, everybody is welcome.
[00:22:57] Come on in the room, but just know that this is not some of these questions aren't new. In fact, they're actually kind of old. And then part of me is like I should make new stuff. And then I'm like, No, get off of it again, word to Oumou, get off the productivity escalator. Like just much like, no, just replicate the things, put the things out there.
[00:23:17] If it resonates, it resonates. As my friend, Jessica, whose birthday is also coming up soon, would say, whatever is clever. Whatever works, whatever works, whatever feels good. But yeah, that's something that's basically what's been on my mind Since we last spoke. And I think I wrapped all that up to say that I think because I am a solstice baby I was born on December 21st, which means I was born on the longest night of the year. Energetically, I think that's a part of the reason why I'm comfortable talking about some of the things That are either deeper or like dredge up a lot of things.
[00:23:54] Like for me, I'm like, Oh, okay, cool. Like we got to talk about it. Kiki, right. Like, even if I'm Kikiking about it, like it's coming from a place of like, okay, well, I don't want to cry about it anymore. I've already done that. Right. Like I've already grieved things. And I'm seeing that honoring that not everybody moves that way.
[00:24:11] Or like some of the things that I want to talk about are too deep. Right. But then the other part of me is like. My lineage and going all the way back to my grandfather and my paternal side, like the Essequibo river is like one of the deepest rivers in the world. So energetically, I'm just like, yeah, of course I'm deep cause like the way that I come from are also deep, like that tracks.
[00:24:31] Jonas: I love that. That's so cool. Yeah. Oh, beautiful. Yeah. I love, and I love how far back you took that and seeing the whole picture of your grandfather. And yeah. Incredible. So something I love that I read from you is saying what does love as intergenerational wealth feel like?
[00:24:55] And when I read that, that just like stopped me in my tracks. I was like, Oh, wow. Like, can we imagine like how powerful that is? And is this how we shape a better future? Like, is that it? Is, is you know, what does love as intergenerational wealth feel like? I would love to just kind of talk more about that.
[00:25:18] Veronica: Yeah. That was one of those what was it? Like 3 a. m. witching hour, ancestor hour type, like woke up, like wanted a snack and was like, hold on, like I wrote it down. I was like, sometimes, like, honestly, like, I wish there was a, like, I know with social media and like influencer marketing or whatever, like everyone's like, do this and batch the content and like, and I believe in like batching content.
[00:25:45] So that way you have room for other things. But then the other part of me is like some of the, like the ones that stop people in their tracks, as you just said, are like random ass, like random, but not random ancestors word, like knock, knock on my head. And I think that I'm thinking about that, especially in terms of legacy building, because like, because I'm surrounded by fellow Sagittariuses, my grandmother's birthday is.
[00:26:14] At the time of this recording on this coming Saturday. So that means December 16th, and she'll be 87. And she still drives. She's actually at work right now. Which is why I'm able to like take over her room. She still drives, like all the things. And thinking about legacy building in that regard of like things that have been passed down over generations.
[00:26:37] Or thinking about being at an age where people are starting to talk about estate planning and not in a like something is happening right now. Everybody is fine, but talking about it in a key of, since everybody is fine, let us have these conversations now, so that way when the time comes, like, it makes more space for people to grieve, as opposed to grieving and trying to pay things off, or grieving and having to sell certain things, or whatever.
[00:27:10] And like, those are all very much, like, All of those things are rooted in money, like capitalism, the traditional kind of thing, and like how expensive it is, like, to, like, bury people or even animals. I also, like, have lost one of my childhood cats and that was a whole thing of, like, grief and, like, thinking about the past 18 years of my life and, like, legacy building and, like, a legacy of love.
[00:27:38] And my, my kitty, Bonnie, she was very much a A rambunctious, like, into everything, would play with herself, would like, grab this, like, one of those, like, Hanging stringy toys that the human would put up like this. She would grab it herself and like play, literally play, like tumble with herself, tumble, come and give it to somebody, have it in her mouth, talking about meow and like be like, play with me.
[00:28:06] Right. She's thinking about like a legacy of that, of like, she's very like, Like, what does that legacy look like? And I'm saying this like the witch in me is like, that was my familiar. A very much like, that kind of love of like our chosen communities and our families and like fuzzy family included.
[00:28:31] But then also thinking about it in the sense of like conversations with my mom, who ended up being the primary custodian of the cats when I went away to college. And I say went away. Like I went far, like, but I didn't. And when Bonnie passed, like one of the first things that people asked my mom was if she's going to get another cat.
[00:28:52] And I was like, bro, we just, I was like, we literally just buried her. Like, this is kind of weird. Right. And my mom rightfully said, she was like, no, like when the cats are gone, I don't think I can get cats again. Cause she's, it's 2023, she'll be 64. Right. And the cats lived to 18. So she's thinking, okay, when I'm in my eighties, I don't know if I'm going to be able to care for these animals the way that I would want to.
[00:29:22] And also shout out to my mom for thinking like that. Cause not everybody might. I don't know if I'm going to get another cat any time soon, only cause I don't know where I'm going to be living. Speaking of like legacy building and stuff like that. But I think that when we talk about. Love is like a, for lack of better word, like a currency or an inheritance or things that people can give.
[00:29:47] I think that one of the things that we can think about is like, how do we want to be remembered and like finding pockets for people to have like reverence or remembrance in a way that is not just the traditional grieving. Not just the stereotype of when somebody passes away and you find out all the secrets and all the things. Or find family members like that has happened to me, unfortunately.
[00:30:17] And fortunately, when my my paternal grandmother passed away, like I found a whole other, like section of the tree and I was like, hello? Like where have y'all, huh? And like that kind of intergenerational work of having some healing conversations with and across like generations, but then also listening. I think that love is intergenerational wealth can look like the younger generations, like holding space for some of the edges of growth that our elders have especially depending on their lineage.
[00:30:55] Like I'll speak as a child of the Black diaspora, not for. So as a, a whole, like as a daughter of the Black diaspora, but specifically Caribbean diaspora and the Southern Black tradition, neither one of those in recent memory really talked about mental health. Not just in the sense of like care, but like after care. Or challenges and things that got passed down things that are hereditary, things that might not be hereditary, and they might be environmental, right? Going back to epigenetics.
[00:31:29] Because. We, in this present moment, are the generation that is talking about it. That is a form of wealth. That is a form of currency. Because if we are parents, or if we, you know, we have niblings, we have, you know, The next generation in our lives, then they're going to see us talking about these things in a way that our parents or caregivers might not have, and maybe not because they didn't want to, but just because they didn't have the language, because people weren't talking about it, especially in the histories that I come from people were trying to survive.
[00:32:10] Like my grandmother is a part of the generation that had to do the great migration to the North because of the KKK and them running around in Alabama in the sixties, because everybody was listening to Dr. King and Malcolm X and young John Lewis, like rest in peace to all of those folks.
[00:32:30] Rosa Parks was about to sit in the front of the bus as opposed to the back, like, there were so many things happening in that flashpoint that made it so that way. And I've talked about this before, but made it so that way, my grandmother couldn't talk about being able to have a connection with the land or have a connection with nature or have a connection with spirits because there just wasn't any time for it.
[00:32:56] Right? Because people were trying to survive. She was trying to, Like he helped raise my mom and my two aunts. Like there's very much like had stuff to do. Yeah. She also made time for her activism though, which I love about her. So I say that to say there's so much that, like that kind of intergenerational compassion, I also think is a form of wealth or a gift because even my grandmother, said to me because she every now and again will crash something Ancestors in Training related.
[00:33:28] And she said to me one time and it stuck with me ever since. And that's why I'm like, I apologize, fake apologize if I've said this before, she said to me that she's glad that I do this work because it gives language to something that she felt as a kid, or when it comes to her spirituality and like being able to see spirits, like.
[00:33:47] She apparently saw spirits as a young kiddo in 40s, 50s rural Alabama, but didn't have the language for it. Right. So then now me talking about like, okay, like you should find a mentor, you should find this, like here's this book, here's this resource, here's this thing, do, do, do, do, do. That's the context. And when she said it, she was like, I'm, you're naming things or you're suggesting people or you're weaving things in a way around the ancestors and spirituality that Is directly impacting her little, her little self, right?
[00:34:29] So I think that that's also like a form of generational wealth that doesn't require somebody to pass away. Cause I think sometimes in the United States context specifically, when we think about legacies and wealth and inheritances, we think about it requiring that somebody has passed or like some kind of like that grief is a prerequisite to
[00:34:51] love as generational wealth. And I'm like, no, like we, we shouldn't wait until, you know, somebody becomes an ancestor. If that's what, if that's the antecedent, yes, but also like grief as the antecedent. And I know I talked about this when I wrote for Heritage Journal, it's called Care Beyond a Crisis.
[00:35:14] And I essentially asked what I'm about to ask, which is, is it possible? For us to think about love as generational wealth without there being some kind of tragedy as like the antecedent. Yeah, totally. Or not the antecedent, that's the after, the precedent, excuse me. Y'all knew what I meant, but anyway.
[00:35:36] Jonas: Yes, I did, I did.
[00:35:37] Yeah. Yeah, I thought that that's what that meant, but now that you say that, that makes sense.
[00:35:41] Veronica: No, precedent as in like it came before, so it's like an ante as in after, I think. Okay. English teachers out there. Don't, don't get mad at me. Basically like, I wish that it didn't require something horrible happening for us to consider that. That's what I'm trying to say.
[00:35:59] Then like, I wrote about it in the context of like, hurricane season in the Caribbean and everything that happened and is still happening with Puerto Rico in respect to Hurricane Maria that I wish that it didn't take hurricanes for us to care about what's happening to other people. Or in this case, right now, I wish it didn't take seeing thousands of people dying for us to care about what's happening in Palestine or the Congo or Sudan or the wildfire hurricane combo in Hawaii.
[00:36:35] Which that that was not on my bingo card at all. I was like a hurricane and a wildfire? I was like, but again, nature is going to do what she's going to do. We're just going to have to, you know, totally adjust. But I wish that we would adjust in a way that did not cause harm to other people.
[00:36:52] And I think that that's my circular question. When we think about love as a currency, I'm like, okay, but hate. Because everything is on a spectrum, right? So like, hate and harm and like all these other kind of things are floating out there. They're existing. Yeah. And I just wish that like it did not take those kind of harmful things happening, but then I'm also reminded that grief is just love without anywhere to go.
[00:37:19] I don't know who said that either, but somebody, somebody smart said that.
[00:37:26] I believe in citations. So it kills me when I don't remember. I'm like, no, who said it?
[00:37:31] Jonas: Yeah, same.
[00:37:35] Yes, I love that. And I love intergenerational compassion. I love that concept of that's so beautiful. Yeah. And that it shouldn't require, you know, grief or something, some big tragedy to, yeah, to. Make that happen for us to have that awareness. I love that.
[00:37:55] Okay. Another one that I saw that I loved that you put out there into the world was whenever we're in conversation with our bodies, we're in conversation with our ancestors.
[00:38:08] Veronica: And that was a good one too.
[00:38:09] Jonas: Yes. Right. Such a good one. And I, when I read that, I was like, that felt so true to me, especially when I was on my fertility journey in particular you know, being more in touch with my body than ever before. And sometimes in very uncomfortable ways. So yeah. Will you talk more about that concept and how it could potentially affect someone as they're trying to conceive?
[00:38:32] Veronica: Yeah. So I have not been diagnosed with this, but I suspect I have PCOS. I mainly say that because going back to the pandemic and the, the big nighttime episode. I put on weight like a lot of people did. I'm gonna say it like this. I have a conventionally desirable body. As a cishet woman.
[00:38:57] Like mainly cishet, but like as a desirable body like most of my weight is like at my waist around my hips chest booty all those kind of things. But within the context of my health, like the challenge therein is like Okay. I really need to be moving more. I really need to be able to like, not get winded.
[00:39:22] Like, not that I do, but like the challenge with that is, is like my job prior to the pandemic was in person working with young people, which meant that I was, you know, in a high school running up and down the stairs, like zigzag or sneakers to work. Got my steps in all the time. Didn't worry about my weight.
[00:39:42] And if I did, I was just, you know, I was having a human moment. Now, it's very much like, Oh, I work from home. I need to really find ways to get back into my body. And I think that that's something that, and I'm not planning on having children anytime soon. I'm doing this question mark because What is it?
[00:40:02] When you tell God or the Creator you have a plan, they laugh. So that's why I'm looking around like unless there's something, unless something's gonna radically happen within the next year, I don't think that's gonna happen anyway. But I say this to say, I think that something that I'm seeing from my friends who, and my peers, that are parents or are expecting, like, when folks are planning, like, I've seen people try to get healthier, whatever that looks like for them, in anticipation of carrying a life.
[00:40:34] I've also seen and have friends that are, that are parents that were told, like, I have a couple of, like, play nieces and nephews that, We're not supposed to be here because their, their mothers were told that it was going to be difficult for them to conceive and carry. Because they had PCOS.
[00:40:54] And I think that for me, I have that awareness. And especially now, as I'm thinking about, you know, like some of the things I want to do for 33 and like where I want to be. And I'm like, all right, I definitely want to be a little bit more active. And what does that look like and the kind of planning that goes into that.
[00:41:12] So for me, I'm like, I'm not in a space of preparing for a kiddo, but if I was, I can only imagine because if it's taking me like this kind of, okay, do this, do this, don't do this, drink more water, folks. That's 90 percent of what the folks are going to tell you to do. Right, right. I'm trying to be in conversation with my body more.
[00:41:36] Requires that I remember what my body likes, right? I love that. And in this case, in the exercising and the fitness take, my body likes being tricked. We don't like being told, lift things up, put things down, lift things up, put things down. That doesn't work. Like I might be neuro spicy. I probably am. I don't know.
[00:41:57] It just doesn't, it doesn't work for me. Right. And I know what doesn't work for me. Even if I know I could do a circuit training, I could do this, I could do this, like random stuff I retained from high school, from weight class, I don't know why I retained that. I'm like, all the things from high school, bro, really?
[00:42:13] But I like dance. I like music. I am known to know where the party is, even if I'm not always there. Like, so for me, I'm like, all right, that's already in my nature. It's already in conversation with my body that already is in alignment with One of the aspects of My primary orisha, Sango, is like the, the bembe, the drum, right.
[00:42:37] And the, the party and the, the fest, the festivities and like being in the, not necessarily being in the mix, but like finding that kind of joy. So then for me, I'm like, all right, then I need to try.
[00:42:53] I can empathize with folks that are planning on conceiving because if I have to do all of that to take care of my health and I'm not trying to conceive.
[00:43:06] I can only imagine that it's that, and you gotta take this prenatal thing, you gotta do this, you gotta do this, you gotta talk about whether you want a home birth or a birth at the hospital. Right. I'm like, you know, I'm like, I know enough to know that. Like there's . Yeah. There's a lot that goes into that.
[00:43:23] Yeah. Do you wanna doula, do you want a midwife? Do you not? Do you want both? Mm-Hmm. . What kind of doula do you want? What kind of midwife do you want? I'm fortunate where I know a lot of doulas and midwives and have so much admiration and respect for them because they, and I might've said this in the last time, but if I did it I'll say it again.
[00:43:40] I have a lot of respect for them because they help literally catch the next generation and doctors too. As long as they're, you know, not, not causing harm. Yes. That Hippocratic oath is still a thing.
[00:43:52] Jonas: Yep. And I just want to like tie in that piece of the ancestors. Like how is that, how is communicating with our bodies communicating with our ancestors?
[00:44:03] Veronica: Yeah. Cause we are, we're literally a whimsical combination of all the ancestors that ever lived. Right. Yeah.
[00:44:10] Good, bad, somewhere in between. Right. I don't know, not in a binary kind of way or like on a spectrum. And I think for me, There was also another trend spotted on TikTok where it ages. People up like or does a projection of what they're going to look like the ones that got me or the ones where people said, Oh, I look like this person who passed away.
[00:44:35] Like, I look like my dad. I look like my grandma. I look like whoever and I'm just like, Oh, wait, wait, I wasn't ready to be emotional. And like I run right off the TikTok. I'll save it and be like, what is this? And actually At my friend Chiquita Brujita's festival she had a lot of different artisans and people that were there and one of the people that was there did intuitive portraits, watercolors.
[00:44:59] The watercolor that this person did, it looks like my late grandmother. Whoa. Except it's me. And I was like, what the hell is this? I love it. But I was also just like wha?
[00:45:10] When we're doing that kind of work around being an ancestor in training and getting to know our ancestors and thinking about who they were, like, asking questions. About what they were like. Yeah. Like I asked my grandmother what her mother sounded like.
[00:45:25] Mm mm-Hmm. because she passed away when I was three. I didn't get to meet her. Also I was tiny if I did. Right. But I would've been tiny if I did, but I didn't like I know what she looks like. Yeah. But there's pictures of her all over the place. But I don't have the sound. Right. Of what she sounded like.
[00:45:40] Yeah. So then as silly as it was, like my mom and my grandmother started doing her imitation voice. Wow. Right. And I think that for me, I was like, okay, we're like, that's what, like, that's what she sounded like. So I have a fuller picture. That's so cool. 3d of like what she was like. Right. But like my dad, when I was working in person, it was with a lot of folks who were also the Caribbean diaspora.
[00:46:07] Kids can be cruel, meaning that my dad dropped his Anglophone Caribbean accent when he was a kid. So then me, when I was working in the schools and I would go to visit him, I would just be kiki-ing, whatever. My usual self. Yeah, and he would be like, when did you get an accent? Again unconscious like doo doo doo doo doo.
[00:46:28] He's like you sounded like your grandmother Wow, and I was like, it's like Achievement. Because like I can slip into a couple of different accents, but the the more prominent one is southern lineage because my, That grandmother is still living and my mom can do it and my aunts can do it.
[00:46:49] Like they all can code switch faster than I can. The other accent that's probably super prominent is being from the New York city area. Cause what am I drinking? I'm drinking coffee with a CAW right. That sound, but very much like thinking about the ancestral piece of like when you're doing. How can I be specific?
[00:47:15] My late grandmother, her birthday was July 26th. When I started to do more altar work, I asked my dad what her favorite flower was. Totally. He was like, oh, she was really into roses. He was like, oh. Well, I don't know. I guess it was probably roses, you know, cause she was again, my grandmother was a Leo, which makes more sense now that I'm a girl who studies astrology.
[00:47:38] But when I was a kid, I was like, you know, and again, like her outfits were very like in the Southern black tradition, like even though she was Caribbean, but like had the Sunday hats and they had to match. And she had her jewels and things like to the nines or how would she say? She liked looking sharp.
[00:47:58] She liked looking sharp, like every crisp and it was all the, all the things, especially because she was in Florida. Oh yeah. It all had to be linens, all the things. So for me, I think that how, again, how we adorn ourselves Down to and including tattoos, because I definitely got a tattoo after I had a dream. Which I've written about, it's my jaguar that's on this arm kitty because I low key am a cat but I think that for me, like how it shows up in ancestral practices is like tangible things of like, what flowers did this person like and putting that on there. Thinking about what they sounded like.
[00:48:36] Or even in my, my father's side's case, like my, my late uncle, he had done like a couple of TV interviews or whatever, and I don't want to diminish it, but it was a very simple thing that I did. I downloaded the videos, right? So if I ever forget what he sounded like, I can just watch it. Right. Which is why I also encourage people to archive, right?
[00:49:02] I think that that's also a big theme of the project and also even within this conversation around being in touch with our bodies, and like recording whatever our bodies did or didn't like. What our ancestors did and didn't like. um, What they. What they dreamed about, what they felt what they didn't feel when they, they hoped for themselves, hoped for us.
[00:49:26] Right. Speaking of like intergenerational wealth and legacy building. yeah, like I really think that some of those things, and especially even in in our facial features, right. Like we look like, we don't look like. I argue that I'm an even split of my parents, and then because I'm in a femme body, I look like my mom.
[00:49:50] But what ends up happening, and this is, how can I narrate this? From my eyes up to like my eyebrow, that is my dad. Huh. But then my nose. Down, that's my mom. Yeah. If you put me next to both of them, it's plain as day that I belong to them. Right. And I'm like a literal, it's literally like copy, I'll have to send you the photo.
[00:50:13] It's like copy paste, like from here down is my mom and then up here. And like my complexion. And some of my hair is my dad. And I think that that also is a thing and that can be hard for folks. Especially I'm thinking of folks that are adopted. I'm also thinking about folks that don't know who they come from and like how that adornment and like their face and like their facial features and like, Oh, I look like this person.
[00:50:39] And like, I'm super privileged to be able to be like, I look like this, this comes from this person, this comes from do do do do do, and thinking about. For folks that don't know, to, you know, to set the standard as much as they can. To let their, their people know in that present generation or that pure generation, like that this is how they want to be remembered.
[00:51:00] Yes. And like. You know, something that I've done in my birthday season is like being very loud about lilies being my favorite flowers. Like, come say hi, don't be weird, bring me lilies, do this, this. And then, in the sense of like, in lieu of a birthday present, I'm like, bring me lilies.
[00:51:16] There's an Instagram account, called Beretta Scott King. She always says like flowers for the living. Of like, not just, and she's a wonderful practitioner, doula, all the things out in Atlanta. She has so many different names. And so I was like, Beretta Scott King might be the easiest way on social platforms, but she, I love that practice.
[00:51:38] And she's been doing it for years of like giving people their questions. physical and metaphorical flowers on their birthday because as a ancestral practitioner we're so used to giving our ancestors flowers. Right. We're so used to that, rightfully so. Right. But we're not as used to or we're growing into being comfortable giving people flowers while they're still here.
[00:52:02] Jonas: Yeah, totally. That's beautiful. I love that so much because that has been in the back of my mind throughout all of our conversations around ancestors of like, what about those folks who don't know or don't have that connection with their ancestors? Me being one of them with my dad's side is, I'm not as, yeah, I don't have as much information as I would like.
[00:52:27] So that, it just seems like the answer keeps being, then you be that ancestor. Then you start from where you are and you know, like break those cycles and start the new cycles, so that your descendants can then benefit from that. Yeah.
[00:52:48] Veronica: Yeah. Especially cause we're in the, the, the technological space that some of our ancestors couldn't have even imagined.
[00:52:54] Right. Right. Where we can like document all the things, even being able to record this conversation. Right. So like and this might be, you know, the Libra rising in me, but like documenting our lives and like documenting at the risk of sounding vain, I'm sorry if this comes off to people as vanity, but like documenting our joy documenting in my case, like the difference between Ancestors in Training on Instagram and Veronica on Instagram is on my page, you get all the outfits.
[00:53:24] I'm like, you get all the outfits, especially in my birthday season. I'm like, we've been like, okay, all the fits all at once. Okay. Like I'm going to dress. And again, it's a part of like what I just said about my grandmother. Like, I'm going to like, especially if it's my birthday, I'm going to cut up.
[00:53:41] I'm going to look good. Yeah. I'm gonna feel good in my body at risk of my mom coming in here, like I'm going to order another thing from another place on the internet. Then I have too many clothes. Like, like there's, I joked to my mom the other day. I was like, if I bring in like another box worth of clothes in this house, she's just going to put me outside the house.
[00:54:00] She was like, yeah, absolutely right. But I I say that to say like because we can document ourselves much easier. To, to document ourselves, especially our faces, especially our features, like what we were into, what we weren't, whatever. And this isn't necessarily an endorsement for the metaverse, but I will say that.
[00:54:21] The good news about it is that it can be an archive. It's not perfect. Very few things are. But I know for me, when my cat passed away, I was like, I know I have more pictures of my cat. I was like, I know I have more pictures of my cat. Where are they? And I was like, they're on Facebook. Went and got them back and I was like, okay, let me go.
[00:54:40] Look at her through the years and like all the things. Yes. And I found a very, very nice portrait of my, my kitty.
[00:54:46] Jonas: Amazing. Well, I enjoyed this conversation so much. I know everyone else will too. And will you share with our listeners how we can all support you, how folks can support you and find you?
[00:54:59] Veronica: Yeah. So we are @ancestorsintraining on Instagram. That is the main platform. We are ancestorsintraining.org as an organization on the website. If you go to the website right now, you'll see two very important things, which is One, we have our fundraiser for the deck, which by the time you listen to this, hopefully will be even closer to our goal.
[00:55:23] We are more than halfway there. The intention is to take some of those prompts that we just spoke about and reflected on and Make them into something physical that you can hold and use in your ceremony or not, or put on your altar, whatever is clever, as my friend, Jessica would say. We're trying to raise 500.
[00:55:40] We're at 276 at the time of this recording. So that way I can design the deck and get that out and have that be something that folks can enjoy in the new year. The other thing that people can get into is that we have merch, right? We have hoodies. We have crewnecks, some of them are tie dye, some of them are one color, some of them have some of the, again, some of the prompts that people really respond well to.
[00:56:08] We also have notebooks because, you know, since we invite people to write, I'm like, you know, we should, we should have a notebook. Yeah. Like thinking about like fun things like that has been a really cool and creative process for me.
[00:56:20] Those are the main spots. After that, you can find everything else. We also have a newsletter, speaking of things that you'll find on the website where I aspire to tell people what's About to happen before I put it on social media. And that's the incentive there.
[00:56:34] You also, if you join the newsletter, you get access to the Ancestors in Training syllabus for free99 without having to circle with me if you haven't. Because I've been very invested in trying to find ways to honor that folks aren't always able to circle.
[00:56:51] So that's why I was like, okay, if you donate to the deck, you're a part of that, literally. And you get thanked in the deck. If you buy the merch, then you outside reppin all the time. Great. It's also fun to see people wear stuff that isn't, that is not like my childhood home because, and I, I love them dearly, but my grandmother and my mom are like the chief like product testers that ever were.
[00:57:16] So they're always wearing stuff. So it always tickles me whenever they're like, Oh, I ordered something. I'm like, you know, like, I love y'all. I love y'all dearly, but I'm like, like, it's cool when I see everybody like. And if you buy something, tag us and, you know, give us consent to post and share the things.
[00:57:34] But yeah everything, everything that I design is already with intention, but especially it's with joy in the design. So I'm looking forward to being in a space where I can hire or take on clients. Cause folks have said this to me, they're like, Oh, who does your stuff? I'm like, Me. Like me, you know, social entrepreneurship 101.
[00:57:57] We are our own marketing, social, design web editing. You name it something I forgot. Like admin. Like just all the things. All the hats. Yeah. all the hats. what is it? All the hats, all the head wraps, all the bucket hats. Yes.
[00:58:15] Jonas: Yes. Bucket hats are back.
[00:58:17] Veronica: You know, that's the one thing, Printify, if you ever hear this, Printify, because that's our provider. This is not a sponsored thing. Yeah. If, if y'all would be so kind as to make bucket hats available on your platform, I would be the happiest client in the world.
[00:58:33] Jonas: Totally. That's such a good idea.
[00:58:36] Veronica: They have dad, they have dad hats and they have wool skullies, but they don't have buckets and I love your platform, Printify, I really do.
[00:58:45] If you ever hear this, I really love your platform because I can just set it and forget it and it goes to people everywhere. But I love a bucket hat. It's like the silliest little thing, people are going to be like, what do you want for your birthday? I'm like, I want to be able to make bucket hats.
[00:59:03] Jonas: I love it. It's so good. All right. Well, thank you again so much.
[00:59:09] Veronica: Thanks for having me. Of course.
[00:59:11] Jonas: On all those, everything you just said, I'll put in the show notes so folks can access everything easily and, go find Veronica and Ancestors in Training and support, support, support.
[00:59:23] Veronica: Thank you.
[00:59:25] Jonas: Thank you.
[00:59:26] Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz. If you like the show and want to hear more, tap subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and don't forget to leave us a review.
[00:59:51] Also, be sure to join our free Qmunity at intersectionalfertility.com, where you can watch the video version of each episode, enable closed captions, continue the converstation, and meet fellow podcast listeners. The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is hosted by me, Jonas Rodriguez-Bouchier, and produced by Rozarie Productions, with original music by Jen Korte.
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